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coleman hughes is an accomplished writer

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a philosophy graduate and the host of

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the podcast conversations with coleman a

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link to which is in the description

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coleman sat down with me for a podcast

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on consciousness uaps and theoretical

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physics though because of certain

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technical issues this is being released

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on the toe podcast instead of on his

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platform a much longer follow-up is

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going to be conducted over zoom for his

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channel comment with any questions that

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you feel were left unanswered or areas

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that you would like to be explored more

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and coleman will try to address them for

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the follow-up next week on the toe

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channel will be professor abbay ashtakar

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who is a prestigious and acclaimed

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physicist who paved the way for modern

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quantum gravity approaches like loop

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quantum gravity and loop quantum

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cosmology he talks about what occurred

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prior to the big bang i'm sure you heard

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that nothing existed prior to the big

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bang well that's only true in certain

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models they're cyclical models where

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that's not true in loop quantum

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cosmology there is no singularity but

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instead a repulsive force that breeds

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another universe under certain

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conditions ashtakar is the physicist

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referenced numerously in a positive

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light by salvatore pius in fact sal sent

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in a question for ashtakar on the super

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force expect that in about a week's time

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as mentioned before this is a brand new

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season for the theories of everything

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project or channel where i'm going to

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explore different kinds of content so

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for example new guests that aren't

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repeatedly interviewed on the standard

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podcast rolodex like ashtakar for

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example there will be more theolocutions

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such as one that's coming up is bernardo

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castro and chris langan there will be

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other explainer type videos so for

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example how does one go about learning a

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new theory of everything and some

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ancillary content like an inventorying

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video about new creators up and coming

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creators in the uap physics math

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consciousness space as tiny creators

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tend to get overlooked despite toiling

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just as hard and given the modest

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following on this channel it would be

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great to shine some light their way as i

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know i wish someone larger had done that

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for me when i was struggling no sponsor

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for today's podcast if you'd like to

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contribute then do consider going to

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patreon.com that is c-u-r-t

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j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l as this is what i'm

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able to do full-time now thanks to your

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generous support

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enjoy coleman hughes interviewing kurt

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jaymungal all right kurt thanks so much

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for coming on my show yeah thank you

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thank you for inviting me so i've been

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listening to your podcasts theories of

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everything right right and we're gonna

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get into the topics you cover

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but before we do that can you give a

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little summary of who you are where

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you're from

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you know your background how you came to

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care about topics

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like

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you know ufos and

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and

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i've

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been interested in

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what are called theories of everything

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since i was a child

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since i learned about them so you've

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heard i'm sure you've heard there's

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quantum mechanics technically it should

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be quantum field theory and then general

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relativity some people say it's the

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theory of the small with the theory of

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the large

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technically elephants are quantum

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mechanical so it's a bit strange to

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relegate quantum mechanics to just the

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small

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so if we did enough experiments and we

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took an elephant and we threw it through

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a double slit

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it should

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in theory

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split regardless when i was small i

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heard about this

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it's a contradiction or it's a

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difficulty in putting these two

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pieces together and one needs to in

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order to be able to describe black holes

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and what happened at the origin of the

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universe so there are various mysteries

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in physics

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and i've been interested in that since

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as far as i can remember

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then i did my undergraduate in something

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called mathematical physics then i went

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into filmmaking

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and somewhat abandoned that though i

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kept the same

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state of mind when i approached

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filmmaking

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and then since the pandemic started i

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thought you know what why not just

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go back to these roots i'm super

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interested in i think about it almost

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all the time

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it unhinges me to some degree but anyway

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i think about it

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almost every minute or so so i started

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interviewing people about their theory

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of everything so their combination of

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quantum mechanics and general relativity

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then i found out that there's more than

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just that because there's the mystery of

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well what the heck is consciousness and

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what role does it play fundamentally

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does it emerge from what we think of as

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material so dead matter

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and it's somehow it became successful

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and that's now i'm super lucky much like

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yourself i'm sure you're like holy moly

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i get to do it to talk to awesome people

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because i see what you want to talk to

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yeah and i got to think about stuff that

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i think about

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you know regardless

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it's almost like we're

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researchers

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but in the university except we're not

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being paid by the university and we

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don't have to

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conform to whatever the university wants

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us to do

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you know universities

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i

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of

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deep and free thought that i actually

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wanted to live by

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in a classroom setting it was a rare

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professor that would set

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the culture of the class

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freely enough that we could really

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really pursue

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the the the deepest

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consequences of the ideas in the room

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with no fear with no social fears so

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that is basically

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i think the the

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the the places

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that actually allow for truly free

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thought

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which is supposed to be what a

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university is have shifted in some ways

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to places like

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you know my podcast your podcast and and

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other places in the culture have sort of

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filled that vacuum

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yeah yeah it's

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it's it's wonderful well it's wonderful

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for us it's not wonderful for

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the universities though they

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i think they think it is it's it's for

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their net benefit right

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at least they claim to

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and i'm also from toronto so that's the

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reason why there's a background we

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switched backgrounds earlier oh yeah

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yeah no i i was there and i said that's

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your domain i'm right here yeah yeah

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new york is much like so this is my

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first time in new york and toronto kind

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of look like yes yeah yeah new york is

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far greater i've only been to toronto

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for like two hours

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three hours but i remember thinking

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this is eerily similar to new york it's

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a moderately cleaner new york and a hey

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drastic than a drastically smaller new

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york

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well i guess

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the two major topics i want to talk to

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you about

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are ufos

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or or uaps as they're now called

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and consciousness sure

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so which order do you want to take these

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in maybe maybe let's start with ufos oh

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sure sure

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uh

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and this is a you know for anyone

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interested in this topic your your

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podcast

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is a major resource because you've

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talked to so many different people

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uh

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about this topic

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and

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i've i don't think i've ever talked

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about this on my podcast but

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basically what i believe has happened is

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three to four years ago

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ufos were a topic that

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marked you as crazy

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and

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really

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anyone interested in them would be

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dismissed

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is because people like me who weren't

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deeply into the topic

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you know i'd seen the videos of

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things that looked essentially like

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flying saucers

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caught on cameras

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on youtube and elsewhere

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but

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because the the the us government had

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never

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given a rubber stamp to these

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videos

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what i think many people assumed was

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that there must be some other

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explanation

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that

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folks high up

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uh

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believes as for for example that

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the camera was glitching out or that it

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it wasn't actually an aircraft it was

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something else that just looks like an

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aircraft some atmospheric effects some

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atmosphere yeah like a rare event of

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ball lightning right ball lightning or

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whatever and

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uh or or it's

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or it's a us military

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actually a us military device that the

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government is keeping secret it was a

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military test or it was russian or

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chinese

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and we just i just assumed whatever the

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explanation is

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you know the people at the pentagon have

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it

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and um and on the tinfoil hat crowd on

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the internet is is reading into it

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uh

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and then

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you know in the past two years

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that whole

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uh

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type of dismissal is no longer really

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possible to make

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because

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uh

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you know

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the the videos especially the ones from

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the navy

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there are at least three different

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videos i've seen that have been released

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that were taken by navy

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pilots

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aircrafts where they're seeing something

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that looks

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you know exactly like our stereotype of

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a ufo and they're saying

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what the [\h__\h] is this

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and then

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you know our folks

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at the us government have looked at it

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every which way and their conclusion is

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what the [\h__\h] is this right they they

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they are as confused and interested as

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00:09:59,030 --> 00:09:56,560
people i would have dismissed three

290
00:10:01,590 --> 00:09:59,040
years ago as a as the conspiracy

291
00:10:04,550 --> 00:10:01,600
theorist and the alien obsessives right

292
00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:04,560
so that's basically

293
00:10:08,550 --> 00:10:06,640
that's sort of the c shift as i see it

294
00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:08,560
is that how you see it yeah except i

295
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:10,480
wouldn't say that the shift is such that

296
00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:11,760
if you were to talk about it you're not

297
00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:14,320
deemed to be a loon of some sort there

298
00:10:19,269 --> 00:10:16,720
are still people like bill nye and neil

299
00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:19,279
degrasse tyson and michael shermer who

300
00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:21,200
either explicitly state that if you're

301
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:22,480
jumping to the conclusion that this

302
00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:24,720
isn't a terrestrial phenomenon

303
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:27,680
then you're insensate and you should be

304
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:29,360
following only what where the evidence

305
00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:30,880
leads you

306
00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:32,640
so and there's compilations of this so

307
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,000
for example

308
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:36,160
i recently requested someone to come up

309
00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:37,279
with a compilation of this because i

310
00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:39,040
didn't see the exact words for a while

311
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:40,800
i've just heard that people like neil

312
00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:43,760
degrasse tyson etc have

313
00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:46,000
despised the ufo community anyway

314
00:10:49,829 --> 00:10:46,959
there's this

315
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:49,839
twitter account named tupac cabra

316
00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:51,920
ii so tupac cobra number two and he

317
00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:53,680
released this whole clip so people can

318
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:56,640
watch then see that yes there is a shift

319
00:11:00,790 --> 00:10:58,560
it seems to be in the general population

320
00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:00,800
but in the people who are the supposedly

321
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:03,519
the purveyors of rational scientific

322
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:07,760
mindsets they tend to still dis esteem

323
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:10,079
yeah so i i'm not

324
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:12,240
so so

325
00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:15,360
there's one question which is

326
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:17,360
are ufos real

327
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:19,760
as in unidentified flying objects are

328
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:22,399
they really ufos are they really

329
00:11:27,110 --> 00:11:25,040
you know now they call them unidentified

330
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:27,120
aerial phenomena because

331
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,040
precisely because they are real and

332
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:31,040
don't don't want to give them the sort

333
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:34,240
of stigma of the phrase ufo

334
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:36,560
so there's that we know they're real at

335
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:37,680
this point

336
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:39,440
essentially i mean

337
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:41,120
all the evidence points that way

338
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:42,480
everyone

339
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:44,720
seems to think that very credible people

340
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:47,600
from barack obama to right you know john

341
00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:49,440
brennan

342
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:51,040
think this that they're real and then

343
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:53,040
there's the the further question of what

344
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,000
they are right where they're from and

345
00:12:01,430 --> 00:11:58,720
that seems to me still unanswered

346
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:01,440
but the the likelihood that it is they

347
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,000
they are extraterrestrial

348
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:06,399
epistemically i think that's gone up for

349
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:07,200
me

350
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:09,120
in the past two years i i wouldn't

351
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,800
venture to say it's anything close to a

352
00:12:14,150 --> 00:12:12,560
certainty or anything

353
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:14,160
like that but

354
00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:15,760
it becomes

355
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:19,360
harder and harder to believe that

356
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,920
these are you know made

357
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:23,519
on earth

358
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:25,040
and um

359
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,040
and less and less crazy to

360
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,000
to put into the ring the hypothesis that

361
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:33,040
they are from extraterrestrials so i

362
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,920
mean how convinced are you at this point

363
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:37,680
that

364
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:42,399
navy videos and so forth

365
00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:45,279
are extraterrestrial in origin no one

366
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:46,720
piece of evidence of someone may say

367
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:48,720
well what evidence exists

368
00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:49,440
and

369
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,320
well

370
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:52,320
that's a tough question no one piece of

371
00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:54,560
evidence is what convinces me and i'm

372
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,800
also in a similar position where i'm

373
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:58,959
i remain unconvinced as to any specific

374
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:00,880
explanation is it something that's

375
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,200
related to

376
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,600
a being or beings from other places

377
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:07,519
coming toward earth that aren't

378
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:10,240
originated on earth some hypothesis some

379
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:12,079
hypotheses are that

380
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,000
they're future humans coming back for

381
00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:16,079
some reason so they're closed time-like

382
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:18,399
curves in physics you may call it that

383
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:19,760
and i don't know about that because

384
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:20,880
there are some contradictions with

385
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:23,839
closed timeline curves but it seems like

386
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:26,800
the standard response is hey we see some

387
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,240
object in the sky it's called u-f-o or

388
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,880
u-a-p for a reason it's unidentified to

389
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:34,880
make the leap that therefore aliens is a

390
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,920
is a large leap and that's true however

391
00:13:41,110 --> 00:13:39,120
and that's what i hear neil degrasse

392
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,120
tyson etc and i keep picking on him but

393
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:43,360
it's a bit unfair for me to do so

394
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:45,760
he's the poster child of this so let me

395
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:48,480
just use him as a scapegoat for now

396
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,399
so people like neil degrasse tyson would

397
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,800
say that yeah that's that's a

398
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:55,279
unscientific leap however it's not

399
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:57,120
simply that we see some objects in the

400
00:14:00,230 --> 00:13:58,639
sky and then we say it's aliens it's

401
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:00,240
that there's a variety of correlations

402
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:02,000
with them so they're correlated you see

403
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:03,839
some object in the sky then you see

404
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:05,680
cattle mutilations directly afterward

405
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:07,839
and no single person see for crop

406
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,959
circles there have been people who have

407
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:11,040
been caught and there are

408
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:12,639
hundreds if not thousands of cattle

409
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:14,639
mutilations which where

410
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,399
cows are drained of blood

411
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:18,480
and investigated with surgeon-like

412
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,320
precision with lasers and so on it seems

413
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:22,800
like laser cuts certain organs are

414
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:24,720
removed

415
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:26,720
in a manner that vets don't know how the

416
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:29,440
heck that could be explained and that's

417
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:30,720
seen

418
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:33,760
close to before or after or during

419
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,800
these cattle mutilation the

420
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:38,320
objects in the sky so that's one

421
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:40,000
correlation another one is that then

422
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,639
there's also people who report

423
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:44,639
being spoken to by these means or seeing

424
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,720
them then there's also the correlation

425
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:48,880
that and these are also disparate people

426
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:50,240
so people who could not have come in

427
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:53,279
contact with one another so someone

428
00:14:57,430 --> 00:14:54,880
let's say

429
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:57,440
thinks they were abducted

430
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,480
and

431
00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:00,639
someone else from far away also saw a

432
00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:02,160
craft and these two people have not

433
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,839
communicated so you can't simply say

434
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:05,760
it's mass hallucination and by the way

435
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,079
this term mass hallucination it's not a

436
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,240
scientific term because in order for it

437
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,399
to be a scientific construct it needs to

438
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:14,720
be a reliable one that can be repeated

439
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:17,120
but the mass hallucinations aren't in

440
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:19,360
fact i was speaking to someone not on

441
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:21,120
the podcast over email about this term

442
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:22,720
someone who studies mass hallucinations

443
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:24,399
he doesn't think it actually happens he

444
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,680
thinks that

445
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,600
well we can get into that later yeah so

446
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:30,560
i just wanna so i i know less i haven't

447
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:34,160
looked deeply into the phenom phenomenon

448
00:15:39,590 --> 00:15:35,920
you're talking about i've looked into

449
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:39,600
ufos and uads and i've heard

450
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:40,399
sorry

451
00:15:45,509 --> 00:15:43,519
ufo and uaps but but the the cattle

452
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:45,519
mutilations and

453
00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:47,680
the you know the injuries

454
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:50,000
that people think couldn't

455
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,639
can't be man-made injuries

456
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,720
this is something it's it's very hard

457
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:56,880
for me to know what to think about this

458
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:58,399
because

459
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,000
um

460
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,160
you know they're i'm just aware of how

461
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:04,639
many hoaxes there are in the world

462
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:07,120
and i'm i'm

463
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:09,519
i'm also aware of the phenomenon of

464
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:11,440
social contagion which i'm you're

465
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:14,160
talking about mass hallucinations

466
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:15,120
which

467
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:17,839
you know i i think i actually

468
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:20,959
do believe in in mass hallucinations in

469
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:23,519
the sense of you know we know that there

470
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:24,639
are

471
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,560
many examples through throughout history

472
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:28,880
and in the present of social contagion

473
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:30,079
phenomenon

474
00:16:33,509 --> 00:16:31,279
where

475
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,519
you know an idea

476
00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:35,680
sort of just travels from one person to

477
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:38,160
the next without real basis right it's

478
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,000
like the the school

479
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,160
that where everyone you know like half

480
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,079
the school got hiccups

481
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,639
um a few years ago

482
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,639
and it was it was a social like they

483
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:50,880
didn't all get chronic hiccups there was

484
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,160
just this

485
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:54,000
kind of brain worm that leapt from

486
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:55,759
person to person

487
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,680
um you know recently there was an

488
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:59,759
atlantic article about people on

489
00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:01,360
tick-tock

490
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:03,920
getting tourettes especially girls

491
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,000
did you see this i heard about this yes

492
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,400
like they don't have they don't

493
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:11,120
their tourette's is caused by the

494
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,439
psychology of

495
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:16,079
you know subconsciously admiring other

496
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:20,079
tourette's tick-tock influencers and

497
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:22,000
you know without really

498
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:24,319
consciously trying to adopting the

499
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:28,079
symptomology of of tourette's

500
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:30,080
without the actually uh the actual

501
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:31,200
underlying

502
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:34,799
sort of typical tourette's condition and

503
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:35,760
when

504
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:38,559
you know it's it's really no stranger

505
00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:40,640
than than the placebo effect it's like

506
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:41,840
why do we

507
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:46,320
take a sugar pill that's actually deeply

508
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:47,679
strange

509
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:49,919
how how much

510
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:52,960
psychology and and suggestion

511
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:56,080
right can actually influence your real

512
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:57,440
experience

513
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:01,909
being

514
00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:04,640
very interested in social contagion

515
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:05,919
phenomena

516
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:09,440
um

517
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:12,960
i i'm less skeptical than you are of the

518
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:16,160
possibility that many of these

519
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:17,840
uh many

520
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:20,320
of these sightings are

521
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,240
uh you know people that have

522
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:26,400
they've seen movies or they've they've

523
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,039
heard things about ufo and and

524
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,160
it gets sort of reproduced for them in

525
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:34,080
what they see i'm not saying that is

526
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:36,160
what it is i'm saying i don't dismiss

527
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,919
that possibility

528
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:39,039
yeah

529
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:43,039
can exist for

530
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:44,799
i i don't like to put numbers on it but

531
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,720
let's imagine it's 90

532
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,320
and then i don't like to say that well

533
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:50,160
who knows well then the remaining 10

534
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:51,200
well that's still extraordinary well

535
00:18:54,070 --> 00:18:52,480
that remaining 10 could still be

536
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:54,080
explained with

537
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:54,880
i

538
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,679
someone saw a craft from far away

539
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:03,760
and then someone else saw

540
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:05,200
another craft and they

541
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,559
are extremely similar in their

542
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:08,640
descriptions and this happens

543
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,200
with people who we would consider to be

544
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:13,520
highly credible in any other situation

545
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:15,200
in such a manner that if

546
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:16,960
we were to have a court of law and

547
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,799
sentence someone to

548
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,799
sometimes even death for murdering

549
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:22,080
someone because you had a set of

550
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:24,240
witnesses but without any physical

551
00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:25,200
evidence i don't think that would be the

552
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:27,440
case in capital punishment but

553
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:33,110
a variety of corroborating witnesses of

554
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,320
a certain credibility would be

555
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:36,240
sufficient to send someone to the

556
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:37,679
jailhouse for

557
00:19:43,510 --> 00:19:40,799
an indeterminate amount of time we then

558
00:19:46,070 --> 00:19:43,520
don't believe these people

559
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:46,080
who study crafts people are pilots

560
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:47,760
themselves

561
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:50,400
who have seen them maneuver in the same

562
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:51,919
way that's another correlation it's not

563
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:54,480
like they just maneuver

564
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:56,240
in a variable manner there's some

565
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:58,000
uncertainty to how they move but it's

566
00:20:00,870 --> 00:20:00,080
also still correlated like they move in

567
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:00,880
a

568
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:05,039
in

569
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:09,120
that's odd i wouldn't classify that you

570
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,200
mentioned earlier what's behind the ufos

571
00:20:18,149 --> 00:20:13,520
are real that's interesting

572
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:19,909
see in physics if you had an unknown

573
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:22,480
particle an unidentified particle

574
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:23,919
so we don't know what this particle is

575
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:25,360
but then you see how it behaves with

576
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,120
other particles so you see it's

577
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,360
correlation you would need six sigma so

578
00:20:33,110 --> 00:20:31,039
extreme amount of data in order for you

579
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:33,120
to call it a particle anyway for you to

580
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:35,600
give it a name but the general idea is

581
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:38,480
that you have a variety of correlations

582
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,440
then you

583
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:41,760
classify it as quote unquote real or a

584
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,919
construct in social sciences that bar is

585
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:45,280
much lower i believe it's something like

586
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,480
five percent

587
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,480
uncertainty and what i'm telling you

588
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,320
about here is that there's the

589
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:52,400
correlation of also certain damage to

590
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:54,640
people who are close to the craft that

591
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:56,880
are all similar the hitchhiker effect

592
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:59,360
which means that certain

593
00:21:02,070 --> 00:21:00,480
quote unquote

594
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:02,080
paranormal phenomenon follow these

595
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:03,919
people afterward and not these aren't

596
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:05,280
people who

597
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:08,240
are necessarily spiritual or religious

598
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:10,159
so that's like absolutely freaky that's

599
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:11,840
why

600
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:13,440
i've had to take a break from studying

601
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:14,240
this

602
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:15,760
phenomenon by the way it's called the

603
00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:17,120
phenomenon because it's not just

604
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,480
relegated to alien life it seems to be

605
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:22,400
blurred in some manner

606
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,760
i had to take a break from studying

607
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:25,200
consciousness in this and this

608
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:28,000
phenomenon because it's it's it's

609
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:30,240
extremely destabilizing

610
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:33,039
i have such uncertainty in my world

611
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:33,919
view

612
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:35,039
that

613
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:38,480
somewhat adrift whenever i study these

614
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:40,080
topics

615
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,799
and and it's not a pleasant place at all

616
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,120
it's this is extremely not pleasant

617
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:46,720
so

618
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:50,480
you might need to change a profession

619
00:21:53,669 --> 00:21:52,640
yeah or at least a strong break or

620
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,679
change your

621
00:21:57,669 --> 00:21:55,679
topic on your podcast so mathematics and

622
00:21:58,710 --> 00:21:57,679
physics

623
00:22:00,470 --> 00:21:58,720
calms me

624
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,480
to such a large degree because it's so

625
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:02,000
analytical

626
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:03,120
and so i've been studying math and

627
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:04,080
physics

628
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:06,240
lately for the podcast okay podcast

629
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:07,760
again it's about theories of everything

630
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,240
which is a physics terminology but then

631
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:12,240
i'm interested in consciousness because

632
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:14,559
it may have a

633
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:16,960
constitutive role to play in reality so

634
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:19,039
there's something called idealism most

635
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:20,240
scientists

636
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:23,120
think of themselves as materialists

637
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:24,960
i'm sure you've heard this term i'm sure

638
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:28,720
your audience has heard of this term

639
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,559
and then someone to the opposite end of

640
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:32,880
materialism some materialism says that

641
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:34,240
it's something like dead matter that

642
00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:35,520
makes up the world and then

643
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:36,799
consciousness is a phenom an

644
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:38,960
epiphenomenon that occurs atop from

645
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:40,799
information processing

646
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:44,640
that's the consensus

647
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:46,799
the other side is idealism which says

648
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:49,600
that consciousness is fundamental

649
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:51,200
consciousness is actually

650
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:52,400
what is at the root it's not

651
00:22:57,750 --> 00:22:54,400
consciousness that needs to be explained

652
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:57,760
it's material that needs to be explained

653
00:23:01,830 --> 00:23:00,559
and if so then all of these

654
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:01,840
phenomena that you mentioned like the

655
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:04,080
placebo effect makes sense and this is

656
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,400
another reason why i don't condescend or

657
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:08,640
despise people who are religious

658
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:11,760
i i used to man i used to be a militant

659
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,760
atheist up until about three years ago

660
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,039
or so i'm so much more open to god

661
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,880
and to religious stories as having an

662
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:20,799
element of literal truth to them not

663
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:22,559
just metaphorical truth

664
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:24,720
i don't see it as so strange that

665
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:25,840
there's some

666
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,960
being that out of love maybe and maybe

667
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:30,080
that's a bit

668
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:32,240
woo but some being that created this

669
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:34,320
world created us

670
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,320
i don't see that as being so far-fetched

671
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:39,600
as much as i used to

672
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:41,520
and so

673
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:42,960
i also don't know

674
00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:45,120
this is another odd aspect i don't also

675
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,720
don't know how much of

676
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:49,520
god becomes true because we believe in

677
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:52,240
god that the fact that we believe in

678
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,159
something makes it exist because

679
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,640
consciousness and our beliefs have a

680
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:58,320
constitutive role to play in what we

681
00:24:01,750 --> 00:23:59,760
call reality

682
00:24:02,549 --> 00:24:01,760
i don't see that as being as far-fetched

683
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:02,559
as

684
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:04,000
it's so difficult because the question

685
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:05,360
is well what is reality and how do you

686
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,559
make sense of

687
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:08,880
that without making a further assumption

688
00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:11,120
so physicalists which are on par with

689
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:13,360
materialists will say that

690
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,640
well what's the evidence that

691
00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:16,080
consciousness is fundamental well

692
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:17,120
firstly what's the evidence that

693
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:18,960
material is fundamental science as an

694
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:22,000
enterprise is agnostic philosophically

695
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:23,039
people like to think that it's a

696
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:28,390
base that has materialism at its base

697
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:30,000
but it's more instrumental it's more

698
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:31,760
like if-then statements

699
00:24:35,909 --> 00:24:34,000
we measure this if you do this you then

700
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:35,919
see this it doesn't say that what's at

701
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:38,000
the bottom is dead matter because in

702
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,520
order for you to say what's dead you

703
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:41,520
have to say what's alive and

704
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:43,279
what's life and what's consciousness is

705
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,640
also a bleary category and so you can't

706
00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:48,480
make an a blurry category and pretend

707
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:50,320
that that's

708
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,640
a valid construct almost like yeah okay

709
00:24:55,669 --> 00:24:53,919
i'm afraid we're going to lose people i

710
00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:55,679
want to go back to the sort of

711
00:25:02,950 --> 00:24:58,840
root problem of consciousness

712
00:25:05,669 --> 00:25:02,960
um and and try to convey it

713
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:05,679
how i see it in simple terms and maybe

714
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:06,960
you can tell me if you see it the same

715
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:08,510
way

716
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:11,279
[Music]

717
00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:12,880
basically

718
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:16,480
we have every reason to believe that

719
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,880
the atoms in our brain

720
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:20,000
are

721
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:24,320
this chair

722
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:26,720
or in my appendix

723
00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:30,799
or in you know the oxygen in this room

724
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:33,200
and yet we know that there's something

725
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:36,159
it's like to be this brain

726
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,240
right like there's there's

727
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:40,799
there's a first person experience to be

728
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:43,039
had

729
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:45,840
you know when atoms are assembled

730
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:49,039
in such a way as to create a human brain

731
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:50,000
and

732
00:25:53,990 --> 00:25:51,600
we're not so sure that there's something

733
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:54,000
it's like when atoms are

734
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,559
comprised so as to make this chair

735
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,360
maybe maybe there is but but we we tend

736
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:01,919
to think that there isn't

737
00:26:05,190 --> 00:26:04,000
and so the question is

738
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:05,200
how come

739
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:08,080
when you put atoms together in this way

740
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:09,760
suddenly there's something it's like to

741
00:26:14,549 --> 00:26:11,840
be that entity

742
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,559
um versus when you put

743
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,120
the same atoms together in a different

744
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,200
configuration there's nothing it's like

745
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:21,600
to be that entity now the question might

746
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:25,440
be framed the wrong way but that that to

747
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:27,760
me is is like the

748
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:30,159
the basic puzzle how come my appendix

749
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:32,159
doesn't have an

750
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,919
identity might be too strong a word but

751
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:35,840
an experience right

752
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:38,080
from its point of view the way that my

753
00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:40,000
like what's special about the meat in in

754
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:42,320
the skull it's just meat

755
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:43,200
right

756
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,159
yeah

757
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:45,919
well i i don't know do you see it that

758
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:48,720
way or no no i don't know if

759
00:26:52,950 --> 00:26:50,799
an appendix

760
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:52,960
has a point of view it may have some low

761
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:54,400
level point of view if one was to

762
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:55,279
believe

763
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:01,269
theories on consciousness which you

764
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:02,640
mentioned the word first person and

765
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:04,880
third person we can get to them

766
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:06,320
which try to study consciousness from a

767
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:07,840
third person point of view

768
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:09,440
it seems as though they're

769
00:27:13,029 --> 00:27:10,720
if you follow them and you take them

770
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,039
seriously they're panned psychic

771
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:14,960
because in some sense this is

772
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:17,120
interacting with this chair

773
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:18,480
what what's interacting with this the

774
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:19,679
atoms here are interacting with the

775
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:21,039
chairs so firstly

776
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,039
our atoms are not separate they're

777
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:25,440
overlapping

778
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:26,320
in

779
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:29,279
so to say that there's a difference

780
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:31,120
between this chair and this chair that's

781
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:32,640
a human construct

782
00:27:36,389 --> 00:27:34,320
and when i say human construct i sound

783
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:36,399
like a postmodernist

784
00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:38,000
but what i mean is

785
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,360
these words that we're using like first

786
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:41,360
person third person what it's like to be

787
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,200
quote unquote firstly that's another

788
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:45,039
synonym for consciousness which we're

789
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:46,240
trying to define so we then define

790
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,440
consciousness in terms of something else

791
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,520
which we don't understand so we say if

792
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:51,120
there's an experience of what it's like

793
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,240
what does it mean what it's like and

794
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:54,240
then we get into a circular definition

795
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:56,880
of consciousness it may be just that our

796
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:58,720
words are not developed enough

797
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,200
to capture what consciousness is

798
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:03,120
it may be that again consciousness is

799
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:05,120
fundamental so trying to place it in

800
00:28:07,909 --> 00:28:06,399
terms of something that's immaterial

801
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:07,919
like you mentioned atoms and a kidney

802
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:10,399
and so on is a wrong

803
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,039
frame to begin with much like asking

804
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:15,279
how can one make gold out of silver or

805
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:16,960
silver out of gold before understanding

806
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:18,960
about nuclear reactions it's it's you

807
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,120
just can't do it it's a chemical

808
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:23,279
reaction can't do it

809
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:25,120
so it may be that that's the wrong frame

810
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:26,640
and we keep thinking that it's the right

811
00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:28,960
frame and then we get into paradoxes

812
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:30,880
or antinomies like the

813
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,279
hard problem of consciousness

814
00:28:38,149 --> 00:28:35,679
it's a hard problem if one starts with

815
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:38,159
thinking of the world comprising dead

816
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,200
matter

817
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:40,960
and it's unclear to me whether or not

818
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:42,840
our kidneys have

819
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,159
some low grade consciousness so there's

820
00:28:50,310 --> 00:28:48,159
the integrated information theory of

821
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:50,320
intelligence sorry of consciousness

822
00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:52,559
there's global neuronal workspace

823
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:54,799
there's spacio temporal

824
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:57,200
theories of consciousness

825
00:29:00,950 --> 00:29:00,080
adverbial consciousness theories

826
00:29:02,230 --> 00:29:00,960
and

827
00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:02,240
all of these are about matter

828
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:03,840
interacting with one another and so

829
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:06,080
there's matter interacting with itself

830
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:07,600
in our kidney and so that would mean

831
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:08,480
that

832
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:09,840
in some sense

833
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:11,440
the universe has some low level

834
00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:12,880
consciousness

835
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,080
and the developers of iit like tanoni

836
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,240
have

837
00:29:23,590 --> 00:29:20,720
conceded in a sense that

838
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:24,830
rational

839
00:29:31,909 --> 00:29:29,440
psychism so is panza is pan psychism

840
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,919
um is that everything has some element

841
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,159
of a psychic quality some element of

842
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:36,799
consciousness correct right so as i said

843
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:38,960
pan psychism is not it's not really

844
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:43,200
testable is it nor are almost any

845
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,200
theories about the origin of

846
00:29:50,710 --> 00:29:47,760
consciousness is materialism

847
00:29:54,149 --> 00:29:50,720
right right so so i have

848
00:29:56,549 --> 00:29:54,159
i'm i'm like totally agnostic between

849
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:56,559
materialist explanations of of

850
00:30:03,029 --> 00:29:59,679
consciousness and and pan psychist

851
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:03,039
explanations and and in fact

852
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:04,880
i'm i'm pretty convinced of colin

853
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,240
mcginn's

854
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:08,480
idea the philosopher column again

855
00:30:11,269 --> 00:30:09,919
which is some kind sometimes called

856
00:30:15,110 --> 00:30:11,279
mysterian

857
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:15,120
as well oh is that is that right yeah

858
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:17,919
yeah which is um

859
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:20,000
you know which you've had chomsky on so

860
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:21,440
i'm sure you know but for for the

861
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:22,880
audience

862
00:30:26,870 --> 00:30:24,320
essentially

863
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,880
the point is

864
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:29,120
human beings were not evolved to

865
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:31,360
understand

866
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:33,600
everything in the world it's like

867
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:37,440
we were evolved to survive and reproduce

868
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:39,279
on the african savanna

869
00:30:43,669 --> 00:30:40,320
so

870
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:43,679
we're we're very good at predicting

871
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:45,520
you know when an object is thrown in the

872
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,159
air that it's going to fall in a

873
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:50,720
parabolic shape right because that's

874
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:53,360
that's very that was very useful to us

875
00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:55,360
we're very um

876
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:56,480
you know there's all kinds of things

877
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,960
we're quite good at we're good at fairly

878
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:00,640
good at understanding someone else's

879
00:31:03,909 --> 00:31:02,320
intentions like i see a guy with an

880
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:03,919
angry face going to hit me i can tell

881
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,840
that apart from a guy with a friendly

882
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:07,679
face

883
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,600
our brains are are built

884
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:13,760
to solve

885
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:14,880
all and

886
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:17,440
only problems that relate

887
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:20,399
are optimized for that goal of survival

888
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:22,000
and reproduction in a particular

889
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:26,950
and

890
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:28,640
you know just like every other animal in

891
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:31,600
the in the animal kingdom has

892
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,080
limits to what it can understand

893
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:36,720
right it's like we we

894
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:39,760
we understand i can do algebra but but i

895
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:42,240
can see that a chimp could never

896
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:45,760
in principle even understand

897
00:31:49,029 --> 00:31:47,760
really algebra

898
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:49,039
at all

899
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:51,120
what does it stand to reason that just

900
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,640
because we happen to be the smartest

901
00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:54,880
animals that we know about that there

902
00:31:59,029 --> 00:31:57,760
isn't a whole landscape of

903
00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:59,039
problems

904
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:01,360
that we stand in relation to the way a

905
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:03,679
chimpanzee stands in relation to algebra

906
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:06,320
or i mean the example i i like to use is

907
00:32:09,430 --> 00:32:07,600
more like

908
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,440
an animal that can't understand that its

909
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:12,320
reflection in a mirror is

910
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:15,039
itself rather than another animal

911
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:16,159
um

912
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:18,799
it's like a a chicken is never in a

913
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:21,279
million years going to understand that

914
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:23,039
light can come back

915
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:24,960
at you the concept of reflection is just

916
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:26,799
constantly permanently

917
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:28,240
yeah it's just like it's never going to

918
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:29,279
get that

919
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:31,600
it's if it could speak

920
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:32,960
if we could hear its thoughts when it's

921
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:34,960
looking at itself in the mirror it would

922
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:36,159
just be

923
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,120
like a functional yeah and it would be

924
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:40,880
wait a minute how come this chicken

925
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:42,960
every time i move it moves and then it

926
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:44,000
would come up with a whole bunch of

927
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:45,440
theories much like we do about

928
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,039
consciousness

929
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:49,519
that none of which actually deeply makes

930
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,320
sense or are satisfying to the chicken

931
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:53,919
and it would just have to sort of throw

932
00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:56,320
throw its hands up

933
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:58,320
in in a deep way which is to say there's

934
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:00,880
lots of mysteries that we've solved like

935
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,960
it's a mystery for 100 years and then we

936
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:04,320
figure it out

937
00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:06,960
right but there are mysteries that i

938
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:08,640
believe there are mysteries

939
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:11,360
that are in principle unsolvable

940
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:14,159
by beings like us by apes like ourselves

941
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,279
because

942
00:33:19,669 --> 00:33:17,279
they are beyond our ken in the same way

943
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:19,679
that reflection is beyond the kind of

944
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:22,000
many animals and it consciousness

945
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:24,399
strikes me as as precisely this kind of

946
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:28,000
mystery yeah i oscillate between

947
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:31,039
that view and also the view of

948
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:32,559
some people like

949
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,600
so yoshobak likes to say mysterianism is

950
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:37,360
the philosophical view that unless

951
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:38,480
there's

952
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:40,159
that someone as smart as noam chomsky

953
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:41,279
can't figure it out therefore we can't

954
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:42,799
all figure it out

955
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:44,960
so he likes to denigrate chomsky and

956
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:46,799
just poke and jab him

957
00:33:49,909 --> 00:33:48,000
a bit i'm trying to set up a talk

958
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:49,919
between them too between the two of them

959
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,240
on the toe channel toes for theories of

960
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:54,159
everything regardless i oscillate

961
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:58,230
between thinking it's completely out of

962
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:59,679
our comprehension just because we're

963
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:01,519
such limited beings

964
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:03,279
and also

965
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:04,799
i actually oscillate between that and

966
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:07,039
then there's some remarks from

967
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:08,720
wittgenstein

968
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:10,399
i think they're called his clarificatory

969
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:12,240
remarks at least simon christian calls

970
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:14,000
him that where he said

971
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:14,960
that

972
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:16,159
there are aspects of life and he was

973
00:34:18,629 --> 00:34:17,760
referring to consciousness i believe

974
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,639
that are

975
00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:20,399
most important but hidden to us because

976
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,480
of their simplicity and familiarity

977
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,240
much like a fish

978
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:26,720
doesn't think about water but it's

979
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:28,879
if it could it would realize it's right

980
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:30,000
there

981
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:34,000
behind this all maybe an idea that's so

982
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:35,679
beautiful and simple

983
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:38,399
that when we finally

984
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:40,399
comprehended

985
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,679
a decade a century millennia from now

986
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:45,359
we will all look at one another and

987
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:46,800
think

988
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:48,639
how could it have been any other way and

989
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:50,879
how could we have been so foolish

990
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:53,520
not to see it so i don't know and some

991
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,200
of the people who are on the more

992
00:34:59,349 --> 00:34:57,119
eastern end think that it

993
00:35:01,109 --> 00:34:59,359
is what needs the least explaining

994
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:01,119
consciousness is what's closest to us

995
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,640
it's every single thing else that needs

996
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:04,400
explaining

997
00:35:07,510 --> 00:35:05,599
someone like what does that actually

998
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:07,520
mean though what was how does that

999
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:08,640
actually

1000
00:35:13,349 --> 00:35:11,599
answer the question of

1001
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:13,359
you know why

1002
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,440
why the meat in my head is conscious and

1003
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,440
you know other collections of atoms

1004
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:21,599
aren't the way that

1005
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,680
one does that is by questioning that

1006
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:25,760
assumption that one starts with all that

1007
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,520
you know is of consciousness actually

1008
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:29,280
that's your fundamental

1009
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,880
that you're that's at the fundament

1010
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:32,960
that's at the base is consciousness and

1011
00:35:35,829 --> 00:35:34,560
so when we say well we're trying to

1012
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:35,839
explain consciousness what is

1013
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,320
consciousness it's no what is anything

1014
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:40,079
else everything starts with

1015
00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:41,599
consciousness i mean i understand the

1016
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:43,599
concept of just reversing

1017
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:45,359
the question

1018
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:48,560
but that doesn't it doesn't strike me as

1019
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:50,160
any

1020
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:51,839
that explanation doesn't strike me as

1021
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:53,359
any

1022
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,000
more satisfying

1023
00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:58,400
than

1024
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:01,440
the the materialist explanation which is

1025
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:02,880
well it's just

1026
00:36:07,270 --> 00:36:05,440
information processing and

1027
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:07,280
um but we're also kind of not sure why

1028
00:36:10,829 --> 00:36:08,640
computers aren't conscious even though

1029
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,839
they process information it's like

1030
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,480
that

1031
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,040
those two leave me equally unsatisfied i

1032
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:17,280
think because

1033
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,760
simply reversing the question without

1034
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:22,000
giving me a reason to accept that

1035
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:24,800
framework over others

1036
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:26,800
when it's not obvious it

1037
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:27,680
also

1038
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:30,079
just doesn't really quench my thirst

1039
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,560
on on the questions if that makes sense

1040
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,320
yeah

1041
00:36:38,069 --> 00:36:36,320
bernardo castro is someone who is a

1042
00:36:41,270 --> 00:36:38,079
proponent of what's called analytic

1043
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:41,280
idealism and he would say

1044
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:42,720
that

1045
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:45,200
materialists have developed

1046
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:47,920
what's called an ontological category

1047
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:49,920
which simple ontologist just means what

1048
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,240
is and then category is hopefully we're

1049
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:54,720
familiar with what a category is

1050
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:56,720
by saying that there's material because

1051
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:58,720
what we do is we

1052
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,880
start with consciousness as our first

1053
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:02,640
person experience that is not what needs

1054
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,400
explaining and then

1055
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,880
what we've done as materialists is say

1056
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,880
that there exists something else

1057
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,880
when there's no need for that science

1058
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,400
can exist

1059
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,640
in its exact same form

1060
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:16,160
without having to

1061
00:37:21,109 --> 00:37:18,560
posit an entirely new

1062
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:21,119
quote-unquote ontological category

1063
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:23,200
of

1064
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:24,240
dead

1065
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:27,200
unconscious matter

1066
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:29,359
so it's it's strange that that was the

1067
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,960
leap that was made now i'll give you

1068
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,400
another i understand what you're saying

1069
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:34,079
because i also too oscillate between

1070
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:36,320
whether it's a satisfying explanation

1071
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:37,760
that's a great question what the heck is

1072
00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:39,839
an explanation at what point do we say

1073
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:42,320
okay so-and-so has been explained

1074
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,680
i'll give you i'll give you a quick

1075
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:45,599
sorry but to go back on that it's like

1076
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:46,400
when

1077
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:52,560
die or or you know you fall into a

1078
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:55,040
dreamless sleep

1079
00:38:00,069 --> 00:37:58,480
you experience the lights going out at

1080
00:38:02,470 --> 00:38:00,079
least in the second case

1081
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:02,480
and it very much looks like the lights

1082
00:38:07,030 --> 00:38:05,119
going out when somebody dies

1083
00:38:09,109 --> 00:38:07,040
right and and so

1084
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:09,119
our intuition

1085
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:10,640
that

1086
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:13,200
there is conscious matter and

1087
00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:15,200
unconscious matter

1088
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:16,000
is

1089
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,280
i mean it's it's not crazy it's it's

1090
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:21,359
like we we are

1091
00:38:26,069 --> 00:38:23,280
we are trying to make sense of the fact

1092
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:26,079
that sometimes the lights go out for us

1093
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:28,079
when we have a dreamless sleep

1094
00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:29,680
and it certainly looks like the lights

1095
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:31,520
are going out for for people and animals

1096
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,640
when they die

1097
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:34,400
and so we're trying you know it it does

1098
00:38:39,030 --> 00:38:36,480
seem like the universe has

1099
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:39,040
two things to exp you know two

1100
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:41,119
states right like conscious matter and

1101
00:38:48,069 --> 00:38:43,440
and what you're calling dead matter

1102
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:48,079
um so why is it why is it wrong to view

1103
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:49,280
that

1104
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:52,560
data as the the total phenomenon to be

1105
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:53,520
explained

1106
00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,359
i'm not saying it's wrong i don't know

1107
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,119
but another point of view is that when

1108
00:39:01,349 --> 00:38:59,280
we have sleep

1109
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:01,359
we don't experience the lights going out

1110
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,960
we think by definition

1111
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,880
because there's no experience we don't

1112
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:06,000
know

1113
00:39:09,349 --> 00:39:07,440
this is something else this is something

1114
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:09,359
that we project onto the experience of

1115
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:12,079
sleep so here's something to think about

1116
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:14,560
can you ever experience non-experience

1117
00:39:17,750 --> 00:39:17,040
no again by definition right so then we

1118
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:17,760
think

1119
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,880
that there's this gap in our

1120
00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:20,400
consciousness what we've done is we've

1121
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:22,079
seen other people and we've

1122
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:23,200
come up with this category of

1123
00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:24,800
non-consciousness and then we

1124
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:26,640
confabulate that back to ourselves but

1125
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:28,640
as a matter of experience we never

1126
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:30,160
experience quote-unquote the lights

1127
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:31,599
going out because by definition you

1128
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:33,200
can't so it's

1129
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:35,359
it should be i don't see why

1130
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:37,920
it isn't a continuous a continuum

1131
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:40,400
between sleep and wake

1132
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:42,640
now it may feel

1133
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:44,160
because you're constantly experiencing

1134
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,079
there's no such thing as non-experience

1135
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:48,640
as you experiencing non-experience when

1136
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:50,720
we say hey we

1137
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:52,480
i didn't experience

1138
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:53,280
well

1139
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:54,960
yes but then you're projecting some

1140
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:56,960
notion of time and so on but as a matter

1141
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,800
of experience and remember the idea is

1142
00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:00,880
start with experience as a matter of

1143
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:02,960
experience there's no gap in your

1144
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,880
experience because there can't be

1145
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:06,000
because as

1146
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,920
because by definition okay so you

1147
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:09,359
understand that so then when we say well

1148
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:11,359
someone so died we don't know in a

1149
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:13,280
strange sense it's like

1150
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:15,040
in a strange sense

1151
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,560
life is not what needs explaining

1152
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,160
because that's what comes that's what we

1153
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:20,560
see first it's it's death and this is

1154
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:22,079
actually extremely freaky because i

1155
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:23,280
don't want to

1156
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:25,200
part of me doesn't want to believe in

1157
00:40:29,109 --> 00:40:27,440
life after death life after what we

1158
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,119
think of as death

1159
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:31,599
because it was disconcerting to me i i

1160
00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:33,520
find the materialist's point of view to

1161
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:35,359
be much more

1162
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:36,839
comforting

1163
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:40,319
personally but regardless it's

1164
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:41,680
we don't know what the heck happened to

1165
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:43,280
that person and then we start we start

1166
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,000
to project some of what we think is

1167
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:48,000
happening back to ourselves but as a

1168
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:50,319
matter of experience we don't experience

1169
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:53,119
death nor life sorry nor sleep there's

1170
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:55,040
no gap in experience

1171
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:57,119
so as a matter of experience

1172
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:58,240
death is

1173
00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:59,520
something we don't know we're just

1174
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,960
making some category up and then we're

1175
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,480
saying it applies

1176
00:41:05,829 --> 00:41:04,400
but we we as

1177
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:05,839
we don't have

1178
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:07,520
any data points for that

1179
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,040
we don't have any observations of what

1180
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:11,040
it's like to not have an observation

1181
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:14,079
right i get that that's

1182
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,800
that has to be true by definition

1183
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:18,720
but um

1184
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:22,400
so like when i see someone go to sleep

1185
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:25,040
i see that their all of their behavior

1186
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:28,000
stops essentially except for breathing

1187
00:41:34,390 --> 00:41:32,870
you know i i assume

1188
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:34,400
for the most part maybe they're having a

1189
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:36,960
dream experience because i've had and

1190
00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:39,599
remembered many dream experiences

1191
00:41:43,109 --> 00:41:41,040
but i don't have that every night you

1192
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:43,119
know presumably you know it's possible

1193
00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:44,720
i've had many dreams that that i just

1194
00:41:48,309 --> 00:41:46,079
don't remember

1195
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:48,319
and this this goes to your point of

1196
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:50,240
having an experience but not remembering

1197
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:51,920
it

1198
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,640
uh feels the same in retrospect as not

1199
00:41:58,790 --> 00:41:56,480
having had an experience at all it's

1200
00:42:01,829 --> 00:41:58,800
like if i if for some reason i just

1201
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:01,839
was like fully blackout drunk

1202
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:05,680
last night like perfectly blackout drunk

1203
00:42:09,990 --> 00:42:08,000
for an hour

1204
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:10,000
then

1205
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,400
remembering last night to me it's the

1206
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:14,800
same as if i was if as if i was having

1207
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:16,560
no experience at all

1208
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:18,560
right as if i was in a dreamless sleep

1209
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,480
for that hour

1210
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:22,400
um and i i would have no way of really

1211
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:24,400
telling those apart other from the other

1212
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:26,240
than the sort of context clues of the

1213
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:28,160
rest of the day like oh i went out last

1214
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,160
night i must have gotten blackout drunk

1215
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:31,359
i understand what you're saying um so

1216
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:32,400
there's yeah there's no difference

1217
00:42:36,069 --> 00:42:34,000
between having an experience with no

1218
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,079
memory and not having an experience when

1219
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:38,640
you're looking back on it for sure

1220
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:41,119
but um

1221
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:44,560
i mean i i guess we we make inferences

1222
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:47,200
on what's likely to be true from not

1223
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:49,680
only from our first person from adding

1224
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:51,359
our first person experience to our

1225
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:53,920
observations of others and patterns in

1226
00:42:56,630 --> 00:42:55,520
the world so like one

1227
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:56,640
pattern

1228
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:57,839
or

1229
00:43:01,109 --> 00:42:59,119
imperfect

1230
00:43:02,710 --> 00:43:01,119
but but frequently found correlation in

1231
00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:02,720
the world is that

1232
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:04,400
um

1233
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:07,280
when people are

1234
00:43:13,589 --> 00:43:09,599
exhibiting behaviors like talking and

1235
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,599
standing and walking and so forth

1236
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:15,760
they're also they also tend to be

1237
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:17,280
experiencing

1238
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,520
something and and we find this in our

1239
00:43:23,829 --> 00:43:22,160
own lives and it seems to be true

1240
00:43:28,870 --> 00:43:23,839
of others

1241
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:30,230
you know

1242
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:31,440
behavior

1243
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:33,599
and doing things and having blood flow

1244
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:35,200
to your brain

1245
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:37,280
and feeling things

1246
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:39,200
from the inside

1247
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:43,359
so we assume when all the behavior stops

1248
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:45,520
and the blood stops flowing and all of

1249
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:47,119
the mechanics

1250
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,190
that that's the end of experience

1251
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,319
because those two variables tend to be

1252
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,720
correlated now the the problem with that

1253
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:02,480
is we we have examples where they're

1254
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:04,800
totally not correlated such as

1255
00:44:08,790 --> 00:44:07,520
locked-in syndrome

1256
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:08,800
which is

1257
00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:11,520
where you know a person is in a hospital

1258
00:44:16,309 --> 00:44:12,960
bed

1259
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:16,319
totally pretty much totally immobile

1260
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:19,440
comatose for all we can tell

1261
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:21,520
and only when they wake up from the coma

1262
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:23,280
do we discover

1263
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:25,520
they were hearing and seeing the whole

1264
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:28,880
time right it's like the

1265
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:30,160
the sort of um

1266
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:31,760
[Music]

1267
00:44:37,349 --> 00:44:34,160
i guess was was was kill bill sort of

1268
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,359
like this like uma thurman and kill bill

1269
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:40,400
i could be misremembering that movie but

1270
00:44:45,510 --> 00:44:43,760
my memory she you know she was in a coma

1271
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,520
and the doctor

1272
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:47,520
basically raped her

1273
00:44:51,190 --> 00:44:49,440
and she but she was actually conscious

1274
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:51,200
the whole time yeah and then she [\h__\h]

1275
00:44:54,950 --> 00:44:52,800
him up when she got out of the coma it

1276
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:54,960
was just this great moment

1277
00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:56,800
but like the fact that that's possible

1278
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:59,200
means that there isn't actually

1279
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:00,560
an 100

1280
00:45:05,349 --> 00:45:02,960
connection between

1281
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:05,359
uh behavior and consciousness

1282
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:08,160
it's like you can be conscious and

1283
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:11,040
look and be comatose

1284
00:45:21,589 --> 00:45:17,990
and so and and not only that but you can

1285
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:23,829
without what seems to be consciousness

1286
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:25,760
it's like i i talked to anika harris

1287
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:28,079
about this and in her book she was

1288
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:31,280
she gave these examples of of

1289
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:33,599
extraordinary extraordinarily complex

1290
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,599
behavior by networks of trees

1291
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:37,440
communicating underground and stuff and

1292
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:38,720
like

1293
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:41,359
wait a minute so they're communicating

1294
00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:42,640
they're communicating like that's a

1295
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,480
behavior we would normally associate

1296
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,560
with consciousness

1297
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:48,000
and it's they're not built they're

1298
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:49,359
they're natural right they're they're

1299
00:45:53,109 --> 00:45:51,040
communicating but we assume that they're

1300
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:53,119
not conscious

1301
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:54,800
so the

1302
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,160
you can get behavior without

1303
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,319
consciousness consciousness without

1304
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:00,880
complex behavior even though those two

1305
00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:03,359
things tend to be correlated most of the

1306
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:05,350
time

1307
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:06,560
[Music]

1308
00:46:13,190 --> 00:46:11,030
and what's more it doesn't seem like

1309
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:13,200
there's a logical reason why

1310
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:15,440
consciousness would have to accompany

1311
00:46:18,470 --> 00:46:17,280
complex behavior

1312
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:18,480
right like from the point of view of

1313
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:20,800
darwinian evolution

1314
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,119
why does it matter

1315
00:46:27,430 --> 00:46:24,960
that

1316
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:27,440
there's something it's like to be

1317
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,400
one of these survival machines it's like

1318
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,480
my appendix doesn't

1319
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,720
you know wouldn't need to feel what it's

1320
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,680
doing

1321
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,280
that's a bad example since the appendix

1322
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:39,440
is pointless my kidneys

1323
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:41,520
wouldn't need to feel what it's doing in

1324
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:44,400
order to serve their purpose

1325
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,630
for my survival

1326
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:50,400
how how come

1327
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:52,640
certain aspects of my body i'm conscious

1328
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:53,280
of

1329
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:56,800
but others i'm just not it's like what

1330
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:59,440
is the what's the evolutionary rationale

1331
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,560
for

1332
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,400
some of these things

1333
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:04,560
being accompanied by

1334
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:07,119
my experiencing them and others just

1335
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:08,880
being totally like i wouldn't even know

1336
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:11,520
i had half the organs in my body if i

1337
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,880
if i didn't take a biology class

1338
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:16,480
so that's

1339
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:19,119
part of the mystery too

1340
00:47:22,790 --> 00:47:20,640
i understand

1341
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:22,800
there's a couple terms you use there

1342
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:24,480
which is third person

1343
00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:26,319
a couple others that i can't recall and

1344
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:28,640
you which is another one so firstly the

1345
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:31,200
category of you so someone else

1346
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:32,559
oh this is where it gets extremely

1347
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:35,920
tricky for me psychologically but anyway

1348
00:47:42,309 --> 00:47:37,760
we can talk about that another time

1349
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:44,230
one has to think about what constitutes

1350
00:48:00,549 --> 00:47:58,630
when you say sorry i don't mean to see

1351
00:48:02,390 --> 00:48:00,559
you like i'm accusing you when one says

1352
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:02,400
let's say when one says i watch someone

1353
00:48:05,589 --> 00:48:03,920
sleep

1354
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:05,599
and the lights went out for them it's as

1355
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:07,839
if they're well firstly that's a bit

1356
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:10,000
creepy one

1357
00:48:14,309 --> 00:48:12,559
periodically watch people sleep

1358
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:14,319
it's as if they're projecting and i keep

1359
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:15,440
using this word projecting because i

1360
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:17,200
don't have another

1361
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:19,760
term to use

1362
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:21,440
god's eye view

1363
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:24,240
where we have this

1364
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:26,240
where we imagine time ticking in this

1365
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:27,200
fashion

1366
00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:28,319
and then

1367
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:29,920
we imagine that they're not experiencing

1368
00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:31,760
anything well we can ask them afterwards

1369
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:33,280
do you remember so and so

1370
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:35,440
and then we say there was a gap and so

1371
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:38,400
we imagine that that gap occurs for us

1372
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:41,040
but as a matter of evidence for us we

1373
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:43,280
don't have that and so from their point

1374
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:45,040
of view there was no gap and from our

1375
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:47,119
point of view we never have a gap

1376
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,280
and so what i'm saying is that we then

1377
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:51,440
project what we think of as a gap from

1378
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:53,920
them onto us because we imagine we're so

1379
00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:56,480
great at doing this because of the

1380
00:49:01,190 --> 00:48:59,920
development of science of thinking of

1381
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:01,200
of

1382
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:04,880
view like a god's eye view that this is

1383
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:06,480
all just ticking clocks and billiard

1384
00:49:10,150 --> 00:49:08,079
balls bouncing off one another and yes

1385
00:49:12,230 --> 00:49:10,160
there's some complexities with

1386
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,240
qft and so on quantum quantum mechanics

1387
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:14,720
and so on so it's already making a leap

1388
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,160
and i'm saying that the people who are

1389
00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:18,640
idealists say there's no need to make

1390
00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:19,680
that leap

1391
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:21,200
continue with the first person that's

1392
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,040
where you start and that's where you can

1393
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:25,520
end you start to develop other points of

1394
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:28,319
view but then

1395
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:32,160
but then paradoxes come in well well

1396
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:34,160
so i guess um

1397
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:37,440
the first person doesn't answer

1398
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:39,920
the question either way so it's like i i

1399
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:42,240
fall asleep

1400
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,680
i i and then i wake up

1401
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:47,280
my first

1402
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:51,599
experience

1403
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:53,920
i've got no idea what happened

1404
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:54,800
right

1405
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:56,960
i i don't know

1406
00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:00,160
whether i blacked out

1407
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:02,640
and wha actually had an experience that

1408
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:04,800
i'm simply now not remembering

1409
00:50:08,069 --> 00:50:06,319
sort of like the show severance i don't

1410
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:08,079
know if you you've checked now it's this

1411
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:09,599
great show

1412
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:12,079
um amazing really really worth worth

1413
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,599
watching and maybe even worth worth

1414
00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:16,319
talking about on on your podcast

1415
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:20,800
where people undergo a sci-fi

1416
00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:22,160
they don't explain how the procedure is

1417
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:24,240
done but they undergo a procedure

1418
00:50:29,829 --> 00:50:25,680
where

1419
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:29,839
their their memory is spatially

1420
00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:31,280
uh

1421
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:35,280
bound which means they go to work

1422
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:36,160
and

1423
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:39,119
when they enter the door to work

1424
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:41,920
they no longer remember anything about

1425
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:43,920
their their life outside of that

1426
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:46,000
building right okay it's like they're so

1427
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:47,520
they only remember memories that they

1428
00:50:51,910 --> 00:50:50,800
have made in in this space they exit now

1429
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:51,920
they only

1430
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,440
remember memories they have made in the

1431
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:55,920
outside world yeah so it's a way of

1432
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,319
completely psychologically

1433
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:00,079
severing your work life and your home

1434
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:04,230
and

1435
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:07,920
interesting about it is

1436
00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:10,000
the moment

1437
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:12,000
you know what they've essentially done

1438
00:51:17,190 --> 00:51:14,559
is created two different people

1439
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:17,200
i mean in some ways in some ways they've

1440
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:19,119
created two different people and in some

1441
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:21,520
ways they're the same person because

1442
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,200
they're basically

1443
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:29,349
what the home life person experiences

1444
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:30,400
is

1445
00:51:35,109 --> 00:51:32,800
going to work today going to work

1446
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:35,119
the moment they walk through the door

1447
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:36,400
they walk out

1448
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:37,760
right it's like it's like going to sleep

1449
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:40,240
and waking up and and and their the work

1450
00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:41,680
version of them experiences the same

1451
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:44,079
thing they're just at work they're this

1452
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:45,920
person feels like he is at work his

1453
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:47,200
whole life

1454
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:48,800
right because the second he goes home

1455
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,880
he's walking through the door again like

1456
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:52,160
waking up

1457
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:54,000
and so there's essentially two people

1458
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:55,200
that feel like they're living their

1459
00:52:00,470 --> 00:51:58,160
entire lives on opposite ends of this

1460
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:00,480
thing and from their first person

1461
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:03,200
experience

1462
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,920
uh you know they they have no idea

1463
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:07,440
what's happening when they walk through

1464
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:08,800
that door they

1465
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:11,440
for all they know they're just

1466
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,440
nothing happens at all

1467
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:15,760
um or they for all they know they're

1468
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:18,640
they've been outside for a year and all

1469
00:52:24,230 --> 00:52:21,520
they have to go by is like

1470
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:24,240
sort of how their body feels

1471
00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:25,599
when they walk back through the door

1472
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:26,800
it's like if they're exhausted they

1473
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:28,880
assume something must have happened

1474
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:30,480
out there or if they if they've got a

1475
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:32,559
cut they assume that they they have to

1476
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:34,240
have gotten that cut

1477
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:35,760
at work

1478
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:38,160
um are they aware that they're losing

1479
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:40,480
like in memento the guy is aware

1480
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:43,040
that he has memory lapses yeah yeah yeah

1481
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:44,319
they're they're aware they signed up for

1482
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:47,599
this procedure um

1483
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:49,200
okay the reason why i was saying don't

1484
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:51,040
mean to drop the reason why i was saying

1485
00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:52,480
there are a couple delusive concepts

1486
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:53,839
there so the third person like i

1487
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,920
mentioned well if we're idealist let's

1488
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:57,599
just abandon that it doesn't mean that

1489
00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:00,160
other minds don't exist it just means in

1490
00:53:04,630 --> 00:53:02,480
terms of evidence stick with yourself

1491
00:53:06,549 --> 00:53:04,640
okay then there's also the well my

1492
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:06,559
reaction was that that doesn't answer

1493
00:53:10,630 --> 00:53:09,040
the questions necessarily okay well

1494
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:10,640
we'll get back to that because there's

1495
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,960
also the concept of you which implies a

1496
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:14,480
continuous identity and that's a

1497
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:18,079
delusive concept because it's not clear

1498
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:19,359
so are you the same you as you were

1499
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:21,119
yesterday and so on and so on and then

1500
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:23,599
can you experience without having memory

1501
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:25,760
so when you go to sleep is it the case

1502
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,800
that

1503
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,559
people are experiencing something

1504
00:53:33,829 --> 00:53:30,640
somewhere maybe this

1505
00:53:36,069 --> 00:53:33,839
nullity void that the buddhists say is a

1506
00:53:37,589 --> 00:53:36,079
place of nothingness

1507
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,599
and then you come back but you have no

1508
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,680
recollection of it i imagine in the same

1509
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:41,280
way that

1510
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:43,119
i i don't know because one would have to

1511
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:45,200
say that that is the same person across

1512
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,359
the rooms across home and across

1513
00:53:51,109 --> 00:53:49,040
work so one would have to say that's the

1514
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:51,119
same person and if we can say that then

1515
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:52,880
we could say

1516
00:53:57,510 --> 00:53:55,119
so the question is does one experience

1517
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,520
when one is dead in some other realm or

1518
00:54:01,109 --> 00:53:59,280
or when one is sleeping and i would say

1519
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:01,119
that the answer is we don't know

1520
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:02,720
one could just not have memory to it

1521
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:04,400
it's like there's this bucket of memory

1522
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:05,760
that we pull into that when we're

1523
00:54:09,109 --> 00:54:07,200
talking to one another we luckily have

1524
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,119
access to this we some have access to it

1525
00:54:12,790 --> 00:54:11,440
better than others but luckily we can

1526
00:54:14,150 --> 00:54:12,800
luckily when we're talking right now

1527
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:14,160
it's like we're injecting into this

1528
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:15,920
bucket and later we can pull out some of

1529
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,839
it

1530
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:19,599
so then if i was to go into a place or

1531
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:21,280
you were to go into a place or one was

1532
00:54:24,549 --> 00:54:22,559
to go into a place where they didn't

1533
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:24,559
have access to this bucket does that

1534
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:26,240
mean that they weren't there well we

1535
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:27,760
have no evidence it's that it's actually

1536
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:32,079
just we don't know and we assume well no

1537
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:34,240
but we don't know

1538
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:37,520
so i mean what's your bar for knowledge

1539
00:54:44,309 --> 00:54:40,960
that's a ques we don't know

1540
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:44,319
perfectly maybe to 100 certainty but

1541
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:45,359
i think

1542
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:48,160
my bar for saying i know something is

1543
00:54:53,109 --> 00:54:49,760
not that

1544
00:54:54,710 --> 00:54:53,119
it's um

1545
00:54:56,069 --> 00:54:54,720
it's it's

1546
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:56,079
and

1547
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:59,680
it's it's known with perfect confidence

1548
00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:01,280
right like to

1549
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:04,079
to know something with 99 confidence is

1550
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:06,079
to me maybe the best we can ever get

1551
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,079
about almost anything

1552
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:09,680
um

1553
00:55:12,510 --> 00:55:10,960
unless you're bill nye or neil degrasse

1554
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:12,520
tyson who says they they believe with

1555
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:14,799
99.999 percent certainty that so-and-so

1556
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:16,799
are not anything more than a terrain

1557
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:18,880
explanation

1558
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:22,240
for the uaps oh for the ufps yeah well

1559
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:23,440
and by the way my

1560
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:25,599
remark to them is all right hey do you

1561
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:28,000
want to play that game i will put down a

1562
00:55:30,789 --> 00:55:29,920
thousand dollars then then you can put

1563
00:55:32,470 --> 00:55:30,799
down

1564
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,480
nine million dollars and that'll still

1565
00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:34,559
be a great bet for you you feel like the

1566
00:55:39,190 --> 00:55:36,880
odds are still in your favor okay that

1567
00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:39,200
uips are not extraterrestrials right so

1568
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:40,559
they're they're that certain that

1569
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:42,000
they're they're quotes they're

1570
00:55:44,630 --> 00:55:43,359
terrestrial

1571
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:44,640
yeah

1572
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:45,520
there are some

1573
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,400
explanations quite some some

1574
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:50,319
something that's mundane or something

1575
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:52,000
mundane yeah

1576
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:53,359
so i also want to ask them that that's

1577
00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:54,880
very strong exactly and there's some

1578
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:56,480
tweets about that

1579
00:55:59,430 --> 00:55:58,000
bill nye and and

1580
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,440
tyson

1581
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:01,280
i i know neil a little bit is straight

1582
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,920
it's i'm curiou i'm i'm surprised he

1583
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:05,280
would be that

1584
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:08,160
certain that they are from earth yeah

1585
00:56:11,510 --> 00:56:10,559
it also depends on well it depends on

1586
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:11,520
quite

1587
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:13,119
when one assigns probability that's

1588
00:56:17,510 --> 00:56:14,880
actually

1589
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:17,520
it's difficult to assign a probability

1590
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:20,079
to almost anything

1591
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:22,559
my brother is a professor of statistics

1592
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:25,200
and even assigning probabilities in a

1593
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:26,960
paper that has to do with

1594
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:28,640
medicine so something that's extremely

1595
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,240
objective where we have replicable data

1596
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:32,400
is actually it's not it's extremely

1597
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:33,760
difficult let alone something where we

1598
00:56:37,670 --> 00:56:35,760
don't know because then one has to set

1599
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:37,680
up what's called a reference class

1600
00:56:40,470 --> 00:56:39,119
and

1601
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:40,480
it's still an unknown problem in

1602
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,839
statistics what should be one's

1603
00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:43,440
reference class i spoke about this with

1604
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:45,280
gary nolan so i can ask you i heard that

1605
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:46,559
yeah right

1606
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:48,079
i can say to the audiences the question

1607
00:56:51,109 --> 00:56:49,440
like when what's the probability you're

1608
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:51,119
going to die tomorrow you may say well

1609
00:56:54,910 --> 00:56:52,000
maybe

1610
00:56:57,349 --> 00:56:54,920
0.02 and then i say no it's actually

1611
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:57,359
99.999 because if you take as the

1612
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:59,520
reference class all the beings on earth

1613
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:01,200
the majority of them are dying

1614
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,720
in the next few minutes because they're

1615
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:04,799
bacterial right no i mean

1616
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:07,280
you didn't go too deep into that

1617
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:08,960
problem on the podcast but i thought it

1618
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:11,040
was really interesting points like

1619
00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:13,200
so is my what's my probability of dying

1620
00:57:17,829 --> 00:57:14,880
today do i take

1621
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:17,839
the probability of all new yorkers

1622
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:20,079
and take that or is it you know let's

1623
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:21,119
say

1624
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:25,040
black men that are 25 years old

1625
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:25,920
or

1626
00:57:30,470 --> 00:57:28,480
americans in general who do i leave out

1627
00:57:32,069 --> 00:57:30,480
of the reference i mean

1628
00:57:33,829 --> 00:57:32,079
it's an extremely difficult problem

1629
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:33,839
which is why people who are in risk

1630
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:35,520
management get paid so much because

1631
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:37,680
insurance depends on it right

1632
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:40,160
well it's not as if an easy interesting

1633
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:41,440
question that

1634
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:43,440
ensure like you know insurers can

1635
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:45,200
discriminate

1636
00:57:48,710 --> 00:57:46,799
against

1637
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:48,720
you based on certain characteristics but

1638
00:57:53,270 --> 00:57:49,839
not other like they can charge you

1639
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:53,280
higher premiums if you're a young man

1640
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:55,280
right as opposed to

1641
00:58:00,390 --> 00:57:57,200
but they can't you know if there were

1642
00:58:02,150 --> 00:58:00,400
some racial differences in car accidents

1643
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:02,160
that were material enough to like get

1644
00:58:05,829 --> 00:58:04,079
differential premiums

1645
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:05,839
you couldn't charge people different

1646
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:08,160
premiums based on based on race and

1647
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:09,920
ethnicity and

1648
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:12,480
i i always thought that's a little

1649
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:15,440
kind of underexplored

1650
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:16,319
you know

1651
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:17,839
phenomenal like where are the people

1652
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:20,720
complaining that

1653
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:22,720
they are being discriminated against by

1654
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:25,359
insurance companies because

1655
00:58:28,630 --> 00:58:27,280
insurance insurance companies understand

1656
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:28,640
that

1657
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,040
you know young people get in far more

1658
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:33,440
car accidents right it's like well [\h__\h]

1659
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:35,119
i didn't i can't control being young

1660
00:58:37,349 --> 00:58:35,920
it's like

1661
00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:37,359
that's a characteristic i have no

1662
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,119
control over how come you're

1663
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:41,760
discriminating against me based on

1664
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:43,839
the statistical

1665
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:46,480
uh average behavior of people with my

1666
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:48,319
characteristics it's like we generally

1667
00:58:52,870 --> 00:58:51,040
understand that to be unethical except

1668
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,880
in the universities but yeah

1669
00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:53,839
oh well what do you mean what do you

1670
00:58:57,589 --> 00:58:55,520
mean by that with the diversity and

1671
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:57,599
encouragement yeah no sure

1672
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,359
yeah but um

1673
00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:01,680
but anyway yeah that that's uh

1674
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:03,200
there's also a problem of like what

1675
00:59:06,870 --> 00:59:05,440
actually is probability what what's a

1676
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:06,880
probability claim when you say there's

1677
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:10,079
an 80 likelihood of x happening

1678
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:12,960
what actually does that mean

1679
00:59:15,990 --> 00:59:14,640
well it me i think

1680
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,000
i mean i tend to think probability

1681
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:18,480
claims are like epistemic claims like

1682
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:21,359
for all we know it seems like there's in

1683
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:22,240
you know

1684
00:59:27,750 --> 00:59:24,960
80 out of 100 times

1685
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,760
we run this in theory

1686
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:29,200
that would happen but it's like what

1687
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:30,960
does that mean actually it's an unsolved

1688
00:59:34,069 --> 00:59:32,480
problem what's the probability of the

1689
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:34,079
sun will come up tomorrow because one

1690
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:35,599
has to then assume a philosophical

1691
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:37,359
framework for probability and they're a

1692
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:39,440
broadly speaking four so for the people

1693
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:40,960
who are interested there's frequentist

1694
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:42,480
which means this is what is done in

1695
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:44,240
physics is you look at the frequency you

1696
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:45,280
just take

1697
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:47,040
a slew of data

1698
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:47,839
and

1699
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,599
each one of these cases so one wants to

1700
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,200
know can you make a probability for a

1701
00:59:56,710 --> 00:59:54,880
single case is there such a thing as a

1702
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:56,720
probability for a single case right

1703
00:59:59,829 --> 00:59:57,520
because

1704
01:00:02,470 --> 00:59:59,839
if there's no can't a frequentist can't

1705
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:02,480
no that's right a classicalist can

1706
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:03,520
and

1707
01:00:08,549 --> 01:00:07,599
probability among

1708
01:00:10,549 --> 01:00:08,559
different

1709
01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:10,559
options which to me that's not entirely

1710
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:11,680
clear

1711
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:13,200
if you don't know if this weight if this

1712
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:15,040
die is weighted you just assume that

1713
01:00:18,309 --> 01:00:16,720
it's one out of six that could just an

1714
01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:18,319
assumption you don't know it could be

1715
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:19,440
weighted

1716
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:21,119
you have no other data so they just

1717
01:00:24,630 --> 01:00:23,280
assume it is until more data comes in

1718
01:00:25,829 --> 01:00:24,640
then there's the bayesian which you

1719
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:25,839
referenced

1720
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:26,960
which i believe is also called the

1721
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:29,280
subjective because it deals with

1722
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:31,119
one's own degree of certainty and then

1723
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:33,440
there's the metaphysical which is what

1724
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:35,920
most people think probability is and i

1725
01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:36,960
think that

1726
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:39,839
probability is something real yes yes

1727
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:42,400
yes so a particle just has this chance

1728
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,119
of decaying at a certain time sorry or

1729
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:47,040
yeah it's yes yes a particle has this

1730
01:00:49,589 --> 01:00:48,079
chance

1731
01:00:51,190 --> 01:00:49,599
but then you get into

1732
01:00:53,349 --> 01:00:51,200
problems of what do you mean it has this

1733
01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:53,359
chance what is what is the ontological

1734
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:54,960
claim here so each one of them has some

1735
01:00:58,309 --> 01:00:56,480
pros and cons and with the metaphysical

1736
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:58,319
yes you can make a single case because

1737
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:00,480
it just inherently has this probability

1738
01:01:04,950 --> 01:01:03,040
frequencies no classical yes

1739
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:04,960
regardless then one has to say well

1740
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:06,240
which

1741
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:07,520
probability are you referring to when

1742
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:10,880
you when you say 99.999 sure that uaps

1743
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:13,520
are so and so it's it's so dubious that

1744
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:14,960
i don't know how they can be so certain

1745
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:16,240
because they and the reason i say

1746
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,559
they're certain is that

1747
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:19,920
there's a

1748
01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:21,760
level of condescension and derision that

1749
01:01:26,549 --> 01:01:24,960
come from the skeptics still to this day

1750
01:01:28,069 --> 01:01:26,559
though it's tempered and i think it's

1751
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:28,079
tempered because of because of the

1752
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,839
revelation right and the us government's

1753
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,240
saying hey or so i think nasa themselves

1754
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:34,240
say this is not any

1755
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,640
known government that we know of yeah so

1756
01:01:39,030 --> 01:01:38,160
then you like what the heck you raise

1757
01:01:40,069 --> 01:01:39,040
your eyebrow there so it's the

1758
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:40,079
government line so here's the other

1759
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:41,359
thing

1760
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:44,400
to me it's very unlikely

1761
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:46,960
that russia or china

1762
01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:50,000
is holding on to the kind of technology

1763
01:01:52,390 --> 01:01:51,200
that would

1764
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:52,400
move

1765
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:56,640
in the way that

1766
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:57,599
these

1767
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:59,440
aircrafts do right especially since

1768
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:01,280
these have been seen since the 40s so

1769
01:02:04,470 --> 01:02:02,960
you would have to say that they've had

1770
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:04,480
someone has had this technology since

1771
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:06,960
the 40s because there's a uniform

1772
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:08,160
right

1773
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:09,359
i think they call them observables

1774
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:11,520
there's a uniform set of observables

1775
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:13,119
right i mean so i can only speak to the

1776
01:02:18,309 --> 01:02:14,880
videos i've seen

1777
01:02:20,309 --> 01:02:18,319
um which are all from the past

1778
01:02:24,069 --> 01:02:20,319
17 years or so i think the earliest one

1779
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:24,079
i saw was like from 2005 or 2004.

1780
01:02:26,549 --> 01:02:24,960
um

1781
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:26,559
but

1782
01:02:32,630 --> 01:02:29,599
like why would russia or china invent

1783
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:32,640
technology that's clearly

1784
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:33,599
you know

1785
01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:36,319
very advanced in terms of how it fly i

1786
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,720
mean it flies like nothing else we we've

1787
01:02:42,630 --> 01:02:40,079
created

1788
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:42,640
and then just fly it over the

1789
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,760
co like eastern seaboard frequently

1790
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:48,880
for no reason

1791
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:52,799
get filmed by a navy pilot

1792
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:56,319
and then not do anything to us that that

1793
01:03:03,109 --> 01:02:57,839
like

1794
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:03,119
and then also not use that technology to

1795
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:05,520
win the war in in ukraine whenever they

1796
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:06,960
have a warrant

1797
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:09,200
it doesn't make it makes very little

1798
01:03:13,109 --> 01:03:12,160
sense that it would be a different state

1799
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:13,119
actor

1800
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:16,000
and our government has strongly implied

1801
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:17,920
that it's not

1802
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:19,440
um

1803
01:03:25,510 --> 01:03:20,640
a

1804
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:26,309
so

1805
01:03:30,710 --> 01:03:28,400
it's such a strength and obviously

1806
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:30,720
there's nothing

1807
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:32,880
like i mean life on another planet is

1808
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:34,880
actually no

1809
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:41,190
a belief than there being life on this

1810
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:42,319
planet

1811
01:03:45,029 --> 01:03:43,760
i mean if one chooses as a reference

1812
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:45,039
class

1813
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:47,039
yeah then we can say well look with some

1814
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:49,119
large degree of certainty

1815
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,280
outside of us destroying ourselves we're

1816
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:53,520
going to spread intergalactically and so

1817
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:56,160
let's imagine that we're not special as

1818
01:04:00,069 --> 01:03:58,000
science frequently tells us which i also

1819
01:04:01,990 --> 01:04:00,079
don't necessarily believe but

1820
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:02,000
that we're not special we can get into

1821
01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:04,880
that if you like but that then

1822
01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:06,720
it would make sense that other forms of

1823
01:04:09,910 --> 01:04:08,480
life are visiting us

1824
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,920
if one chooses as a reference class

1825
01:04:13,029 --> 01:04:11,280
ourselves and we project ourselves to

1826
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:13,039
the future we got to wrap up this has

1827
01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:14,319
been really good

1828
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:16,160
where can my listeners go if they want

1829
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:19,039
to hear more about ufos consciousness

1830
01:04:23,109 --> 01:04:21,119
theories of everything etc

1831
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:23,119
sure you can search theories of

1832
01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:25,200
everything on youtube my my name should

1833
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:27,440
come up kurt j mungle

1834
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,079
and if you're interested in like coleman

1835
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:32,720
mentioned physics mathematics

1836
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:34,240
free will god as well which we didn't

1837
01:04:36,470 --> 01:04:35,680
get to talk much about

1838
01:04:40,630 --> 01:04:36,480
and

1839
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:40,640
how they relate to that

1840
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:42,079
then

1841
01:04:47,109 --> 01:04:45,200
enjoy it

1842
01:04:50,230 --> 01:04:47,119
awesome thank you so much kurt

1843
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:52,150
the podcast is now finished if you'd

1844
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:53,920
like to support conversations like this

1845
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:57,039
then do consider going to patreon.com

1846
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:01,119
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1847
01:05:05,589 --> 01:05:03,760
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

1848
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:05,599
the patrons and from the sponsors that